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Feb. 26th, 2002 04:55 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
hannibalvFebruary 25, 2002
Very little happened today, so I'm pleased to be able to bring you the following conversation. It has been edited for length and to remove information that could identify "Sarah" beyond me telling you that she is a friend from online. I expect to hear the word "revealing" in the comments once or twice.
Sarah: hey hanni
Me: Hello.
Sarah: how's you?
Me: Frowntastic.
Me: Craptacular.
Sarah: hmmm
Sarah: :|
Sarah: like that?
Me: Nope. Full-on 9
Sarah: you're sad today...is it manageable?
Me: Yeah, by applying copious amounts of bourbon to the back of my throat.
Sarah: you don't drink
Sarah: so I guess yer up a creek
Me: And now you know why.
Sarah: how about some unmolested Kool-Aid?
Me: That's a start.
Me: I used alcohol like a self-aimed weapon.
Sarah: once
Sarah: right?
Sarah: just once?
Me: More than once. A couple of times a month for six months.
Sarah: how long ago?
Me: I quit July 4, 1999.
Sarah: not so long ago
Sarah: were you drinking alone?
Sarah: did you make yourself sick?
Me: No and yes. Vomit a-plenty.
Sarah: ever pass out?
Me: Yes.
Sarah: ah
Sarah: better not to drink
Sarah: <--will never mess with your Kool-Aid again
Me: Thank you.
Me: Honestly though, I used it like a weapon--I was using it to injure myself--that's why I only drank hard stuff.
Sarah: you have issues my dear
Sarah: I mean, I know all about self destructive behavior
Sarah: but you take it to a new, very concrete, high
Sarah: i.e. the drinking
Sarah: i.e. not eating
Sarah: did you ever cut yourself when you were younger?
Me: Let's not forget the cutting.
Sarah: there we go
Sarah: did I peg that or what?
Me: Well done.
Sarah: thanks, I'd like to be wrong
Sarah: I've had a lot of friends who did that in high school and early college
Sarah: when did you stop?
Me: After my time in the hospital.
Sarah: you never mentioned that
Sarah: when was that?
Me: August 1996.
Me: 3 days, after I walked into the ER bleeding from the wrists, asking for help.
Sarah: 3 day hold is what it's referred to, no?
Me: I'm not entirely sure--I was a bit preoccupied.
Sarah: I'm sure it was
Sarah: what happened that time you cut your wrists?
Sarah: and before that, did you habitually cut yourself?
Me: Not *habitually*, necessarily, but there were a couple of incidents, where it happened almost idly.
Sarah: did they diagnose you as anything but depressed?
Sarah: personality "disorder"
Me: Not that I know of.
Sarah: so what do you do now?
Me: Control.
Sarah: I mean, you're still depressed (that much is obvious)--what is it you do to punish yourself now? Is it just not eating?
Me: And sometimes punish myself with hunger.
Me: Control, control, control.
Sarah: and do you have it?
Me: Usually.
Sarah: but you aren't happy
Me: It's not about happy, it's about not doing real, direct harm.
Sarah: what would make you happy?
Me: I don't even know any more.
Sarah: me neither
Sarah: but I have my suspicions
Sarah: do you think that you might be able to fall in love? Do you even want to?
Me: I think I'm a failure who peaked at 14.
Me: I'd love to, but I think I'd be really bad at it.
Sarah: well, that's most of the world...they give it a shot anyways
Sarah: you're out of practice
Me: No, I think I'd be really bad at being in love because I'd just end up fucking it up somehow.
Me: My one and only ex, toward the end, pointed out that I probably never loved her, but was in love with the idea of loving her.
Sarah: like I said, that's most people in the world
Sarah: you aren't unique there
Me: If I'm not going to do it right, if I'm only going to end up hurting someone else--hurting myself is acceptable, hurting others is not--why should I even try?
Sarah: because that's life john...sorry to say its one big freaking experiment...sometimes you win, others lose...sometimes it's the other way around
Sarah: you roll with the punches and you judge it on the sum total
Sarah: *shrugs*
Sarah: but if you don't even play....you lose
Me: If I don't play, I lose. If I do play, I'm likely to lose. There has to be another option.
Sarah: sometimes playing makes it worthwhile--even if you know you're gonna lose
Me: Why would you undertake something if you know you're going to lose?
Sarah: because it's a worthwhile endeavor anyways...the chase is fun, it makes you feel alive, it may even make you happy for awhile, and there is always the hope that you might win
Me: It doesn't make me feel alive. It tends to make me wish I was dead.
Sarah: you've only done it once
Sarah: the first time for anything hurts like a bitch
Me: The chase, though.
Sarah: it's practice that helps make you immune to the pain
Sarah: how many times have you chased, in earnest?
Me: A couple. Fewer than five.
Sarah: yeah, well, that's not a lot love
Me: So?
Sarah: well, so you haven't rolled with enough punches to be any good at it
Me: Why do I have to try to get good at it?
Sarah: because you might eventually be happy
Me: Which is in and of itself scary.
Sarah: weird
Me: What, to be scared of happiness?
Me: Let's also as the idea that I'd have absolutely no idea of what to do if I won the chase.
Sarah: you've done it before
Me: I'm terrified of dating anyone because of my mother, too.
Sarah: huh>
Sarah: ?
Me: It's true. My mother would interfere early and often with any kind of relationship.
Sarah: how?
Me: "Is she Catholic? When can I meet her? How did this start? When? Why?"...etc.
Sarah: so perhaps step one is to move outta da house
Me: I can't do that.
Sarah: you won't do that though
Me: It's not a "won't", it's a "can't".
Me: And that wouldn't really solve anything with regard to this.
Me: Ultimately, she wouldn't take it seriously.
Sarah: hmm
Me: I know I won't get married until she's dead.
Sarah: are you serious? sheesh
Me: Yes I am.
Sarah: why is she so important in your adult life?
Me: Because to her I'm not an adult.
Sarah: but this is your life, your perception
Me: Because I'm afraid of her, just as I've always been.
Sarah: why
Sarah: YOU ARE AN ADULT
Sarah: you need therapy
Sarah: I need therapy
Sarah: group discount
Me: Because fear of parental disapproval was, literally, beaten into me.
Sarah: me too
Sarah: *shrugs* but now I just hate them and live far away
Me: You're stronger than I am, then.
Me: I'm still afraid.
Sarah: move away, it helps
Sarah: I don't know what to tell you other than you need analysis
Sarah: and some conjones
Sarah: cajones
Sarah: balls
Sarah: I say that with love
Sarah: believe it or not
Sarah: I like your journal and I so impressed that you've kept it up every damned day
Sarah: but when I read it, I am often left wondering why you don't develop things
Me: Go ahead. Which one is it, "Sucks", or "boring"?
Sarah: but I guess the journal is for you
Sarah: no, neither
Sarah: unsatisfying
Me: What things am I not developing?
Sarah: ideas
Sarah: conversations
Sarah: you allude to them
Sarah: and poof that's it
Me: Much of that's intentional.
Sarah: it's maddening
Me: Sorry. Comment on these things, or ask me when you see me.
Sarah: you tell me it's none of my business
Sarah: so it's still maddening
Me: My life may be an open book, but that doesn't mean I can't glue a couple of the pages together.
Sarah: you're special to me...as corny as that sounds
Sarah: but I want to kick you in the head most of the time
Me: That would make me go "Ow".
Sarah: and I want to kick you b/c you don't want to be happy
Sarah: makes me mad
Sarah: makes me feel like my worldview is constantly banging its head against a wall
Me: Have I said I don't want to be happy? Or am I just willing to settle for less?
Sarah: I think your less is the equiv of not happy
Me: Well, yeah.
Me: You see "Happy" as a C+, I see it as an A++.
Sarah: explain
Me: You think happiness is a baseline, something that anybody can have with little effort. I see it as a nigh-unreachable goal.
Sarah: ah
Sarah: but some people get A+ s
Me: Not many.
Sarah: but its there
Me: I know.
Submit your comments below.
Today's Link Of The Day is
JHR
2/26/2002 4:52 AM
Very little happened today, so I'm pleased to be able to bring you the following conversation. It has been edited for length and to remove information that could identify "Sarah" beyond me telling you that she is a friend from online. I expect to hear the word "revealing" in the comments once or twice.
Sarah: hey hanni
Me: Hello.
Sarah: how's you?
Me: Frowntastic.
Me: Craptacular.
Sarah: hmmm
Sarah: :|
Sarah: like that?
Me: Nope. Full-on 9
Sarah: you're sad today...is it manageable?
Me: Yeah, by applying copious amounts of bourbon to the back of my throat.
Sarah: you don't drink
Sarah: so I guess yer up a creek
Me: And now you know why.
Sarah: how about some unmolested Kool-Aid?
Me: That's a start.
Me: I used alcohol like a self-aimed weapon.
Sarah: once
Sarah: right?
Sarah: just once?
Me: More than once. A couple of times a month for six months.
Sarah: how long ago?
Me: I quit July 4, 1999.
Sarah: not so long ago
Sarah: were you drinking alone?
Sarah: did you make yourself sick?
Me: No and yes. Vomit a-plenty.
Sarah: ever pass out?
Me: Yes.
Sarah: ah
Sarah: better not to drink
Sarah: <--will never mess with your Kool-Aid again
Me: Thank you.
Me: Honestly though, I used it like a weapon--I was using it to injure myself--that's why I only drank hard stuff.
Sarah: you have issues my dear
Sarah: I mean, I know all about self destructive behavior
Sarah: but you take it to a new, very concrete, high
Sarah: i.e. the drinking
Sarah: i.e. not eating
Sarah: did you ever cut yourself when you were younger?
Me: Let's not forget the cutting.
Sarah: there we go
Sarah: did I peg that or what?
Me: Well done.
Sarah: thanks, I'd like to be wrong
Sarah: I've had a lot of friends who did that in high school and early college
Sarah: when did you stop?
Me: After my time in the hospital.
Sarah: you never mentioned that
Sarah: when was that?
Me: August 1996.
Me: 3 days, after I walked into the ER bleeding from the wrists, asking for help.
Sarah: 3 day hold is what it's referred to, no?
Me: I'm not entirely sure--I was a bit preoccupied.
Sarah: I'm sure it was
Sarah: what happened that time you cut your wrists?
Sarah: and before that, did you habitually cut yourself?
Me: Not *habitually*, necessarily, but there were a couple of incidents, where it happened almost idly.
Sarah: did they diagnose you as anything but depressed?
Sarah: personality "disorder"
Me: Not that I know of.
Sarah: so what do you do now?
Me: Control.
Sarah: I mean, you're still depressed (that much is obvious)--what is it you do to punish yourself now? Is it just not eating?
Me: And sometimes punish myself with hunger.
Me: Control, control, control.
Sarah: and do you have it?
Me: Usually.
Sarah: but you aren't happy
Me: It's not about happy, it's about not doing real, direct harm.
Sarah: what would make you happy?
Me: I don't even know any more.
Sarah: me neither
Sarah: but I have my suspicions
Sarah: do you think that you might be able to fall in love? Do you even want to?
Me: I think I'm a failure who peaked at 14.
Me: I'd love to, but I think I'd be really bad at it.
Sarah: well, that's most of the world...they give it a shot anyways
Sarah: you're out of practice
Me: No, I think I'd be really bad at being in love because I'd just end up fucking it up somehow.
Me: My one and only ex, toward the end, pointed out that I probably never loved her, but was in love with the idea of loving her.
Sarah: like I said, that's most people in the world
Sarah: you aren't unique there
Me: If I'm not going to do it right, if I'm only going to end up hurting someone else--hurting myself is acceptable, hurting others is not--why should I even try?
Sarah: because that's life john...sorry to say its one big freaking experiment...sometimes you win, others lose...sometimes it's the other way around
Sarah: you roll with the punches and you judge it on the sum total
Sarah: *shrugs*
Sarah: but if you don't even play....you lose
Me: If I don't play, I lose. If I do play, I'm likely to lose. There has to be another option.
Sarah: sometimes playing makes it worthwhile--even if you know you're gonna lose
Me: Why would you undertake something if you know you're going to lose?
Sarah: because it's a worthwhile endeavor anyways...the chase is fun, it makes you feel alive, it may even make you happy for awhile, and there is always the hope that you might win
Me: It doesn't make me feel alive. It tends to make me wish I was dead.
Sarah: you've only done it once
Sarah: the first time for anything hurts like a bitch
Me: The chase, though.
Sarah: it's practice that helps make you immune to the pain
Sarah: how many times have you chased, in earnest?
Me: A couple. Fewer than five.
Sarah: yeah, well, that's not a lot love
Me: So?
Sarah: well, so you haven't rolled with enough punches to be any good at it
Me: Why do I have to try to get good at it?
Sarah: because you might eventually be happy
Me: Which is in and of itself scary.
Sarah: weird
Me: What, to be scared of happiness?
Me: Let's also as the idea that I'd have absolutely no idea of what to do if I won the chase.
Sarah: you've done it before
Me: I'm terrified of dating anyone because of my mother, too.
Sarah: huh>
Sarah: ?
Me: It's true. My mother would interfere early and often with any kind of relationship.
Sarah: how?
Me: "Is she Catholic? When can I meet her? How did this start? When? Why?"...etc.
Sarah: so perhaps step one is to move outta da house
Me: I can't do that.
Sarah: you won't do that though
Me: It's not a "won't", it's a "can't".
Me: And that wouldn't really solve anything with regard to this.
Me: Ultimately, she wouldn't take it seriously.
Sarah: hmm
Me: I know I won't get married until she's dead.
Sarah: are you serious? sheesh
Me: Yes I am.
Sarah: why is she so important in your adult life?
Me: Because to her I'm not an adult.
Sarah: but this is your life, your perception
Me: Because I'm afraid of her, just as I've always been.
Sarah: why
Sarah: YOU ARE AN ADULT
Sarah: you need therapy
Sarah: I need therapy
Sarah: group discount
Me: Because fear of parental disapproval was, literally, beaten into me.
Sarah: me too
Sarah: *shrugs* but now I just hate them and live far away
Me: You're stronger than I am, then.
Me: I'm still afraid.
Sarah: move away, it helps
Sarah: I don't know what to tell you other than you need analysis
Sarah: and some conjones
Sarah: cajones
Sarah: balls
Sarah: I say that with love
Sarah: believe it or not
Sarah: I like your journal and I so impressed that you've kept it up every damned day
Sarah: but when I read it, I am often left wondering why you don't develop things
Me: Go ahead. Which one is it, "Sucks", or "boring"?
Sarah: but I guess the journal is for you
Sarah: no, neither
Sarah: unsatisfying
Me: What things am I not developing?
Sarah: ideas
Sarah: conversations
Sarah: you allude to them
Sarah: and poof that's it
Me: Much of that's intentional.
Sarah: it's maddening
Me: Sorry. Comment on these things, or ask me when you see me.
Sarah: you tell me it's none of my business
Sarah: so it's still maddening
Me: My life may be an open book, but that doesn't mean I can't glue a couple of the pages together.
Sarah: you're special to me...as corny as that sounds
Sarah: but I want to kick you in the head most of the time
Me: That would make me go "Ow".
Sarah: and I want to kick you b/c you don't want to be happy
Sarah: makes me mad
Sarah: makes me feel like my worldview is constantly banging its head against a wall
Me: Have I said I don't want to be happy? Or am I just willing to settle for less?
Sarah: I think your less is the equiv of not happy
Me: Well, yeah.
Me: You see "Happy" as a C+, I see it as an A++.
Sarah: explain
Me: You think happiness is a baseline, something that anybody can have with little effort. I see it as a nigh-unreachable goal.
Sarah: ah
Sarah: but some people get A+ s
Me: Not many.
Sarah: but its there
Me: I know.
Submit your comments below.
Today's Link Of The Day is
I took the What Mythological Creature Are you? test by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
peacefulchaos !
JHR
2/26/2002 4:52 AM
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Invalid assumption
Date: 2002-02-26 05:50 am (UTC)The difference is, not playing and losing is permanent. Playing and losing gives you the option to play again, with another possibility of winning.
You don't refuse to ride a roller coaster simply because you MIGHT throw up or fall off. I can understand once bitten, twice shy -- but once bitten forever shy?
John, nothing I can say will change your view; I'm not a counselor, for a great many reasons. But I'll tell you that one thing I learned the hard way was not trying hurts a hell of a lot more than trying and failing. You've seen Cuckoo's Nest, right? McMurphy TRIED. Sure, he failed. But his actions led to a greater event.
You say you don't want to hurt others. What you don't seem to realize is that you DO hurt others by refusing to attempt enjoyment. It hurts those of us who care about you to see you voluntarily paralyzing yourself (metaphorically, of course -- although literally would be far, far worse).
I feel good when I know you're doing things you enjoy -- like watching/reviewing movies, reading comics, etc. You may think that's not much of a life, but people do make lives off of those things. If that's your happiness, that's your happiness. I think your view of A++ is way off -- almost nobody is THAT happy. We're content. I'd rather be living as a millionaire recluse in California -- but my happiness, what makes me realize that NOT having my dreams DOESN'T suck, is the fact that I deeply love my wife. I know this doesn't directly apply to your situation, but my point is simply that life is a compromise. I got lucky -- Ann is exactly what I want and need to prevent myself from going bug-kitten nuts. For most people, another person isn't going to be sufficient.
For you, it MIGHT be movies and comics. We ALL live from day to day; plans mean nothing in the face of changing events. So what if you don't have long-term goals? Live for today and let those of us who HAVE practically unattainable goals envy your carefree larks. I don't know. Life may be a C+ experience -- but when the odds are stacked against you, a bronze is as good as a gold.
I know I haven't given any kind of solution here, and I'm not trying to scold you or anything. You've made some strong decisions I really respect -- stopping drinking, for example, and the fact that you're caring for your dad (whether he'll ever let you know what it means to him or not). For a lesser man -- and don't think there aren't lesser men, you big-hearted bastard -- that would have been the straw that broke the camel's back, and they would have hit the nearest Greyhound station.
You're a decent human being, John, and that's more than I can say for most of the shitbags we deal with on a regular basis.
--Strange/Dave